Andree Feillard: Most Muslim Women in France Do Not Wear Headscarfs

The French government’s policy to ban the use of religious symbols in France’s public schools has invited controversy and wide reactions in the Muslim world including Indonesia though this state has also been enforcing secularism in its public policy. Through this policy the French government is expecting a reformation among French citizens, including immigrant and indigenous citizens.

To know about the headscarf controversy in France and its religious policy, Ulil Abshar-Abdalla from Kajian Islam Utan Kayu (KIUK) interviewed both Syafiq Hasyim (SH), Deputy Director of International Centre for Islam and Pluralism (ICIP) who had just been to Paris to observe the condition directly, and Andree Feillard (AF), an Indonesianist from France who works for Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique and who has written the book NU vis a vis Negara. The interview was conducted on Thursday (22/01/04) in Jakarta.

ULIL ABSHAR ABDALLA: Mr. Syafiq, what are your thoughts on the headscarf controversy in France?

SH: In general the Muslim communities have no objection to the ban of those religious symbols. It not only involves the headscarf, but all religious symbols, that is, Christian, Jewish and Islamic symbols. In my disussions there I met a prominent mufti in Marseille named Benceikh, an assistant to an Imam at the Paris mosque, Jalil Bubakar. I also visited Lile and met the Muslim community there.

ULIL: How do those Muslim figures respond to it?

SH: They were not only talking about headscarf, but also the laicite problem or secularism. To them, the headscarf is a small matter and should not be overstated. Since headscarf to them is not a principle thing in Islam. They further said that Islam is actually benefited by secularism.

ULIL: What is meant by secularism in this context?

SH: We have to recognize that French secularism differs to English or American secularism. There are areas where secularism in the meaning of separating religion and state is strictly accomplished, like in hospital and school. Here people should not carry any religious symbol. It is performed by the French government to support the integration policy wherein religious communities should not isolate themselves or show their religious symbols off. They are not allowed to endorse communitarianism and they should be integrated with each other in the context of the nation.

ULIL: What do you mean by mentioning that secularism benefits the Muslim community?

SH: It is because they are led by the majority law system supporting secularism. If only they accept not laicite or secularism, there will be a chance for the French people to adopt the Catholic system, since their major religion is Catholicism.

ULIL: Now Andree: to you, what is the background of the ban on religious symbols in France?

AF: I think to understand the background of the ban, we should return to the special context of France, where France experienced many interfaith wars. Due to that bitter experience, a lucid separation between religion and state was enforced since 1905. At that time, there were no Muslim immigrants at all and therefore it was the Catholics who were effected by regulations of separation between religion and state. Then, the minority groups in France were merely Protestants and Jews. Nevertheless, since 1950’s many Muslim immigrants have entered France. So this secularism has been endured by Catholic, Protestant and Jewish communities previously to help social integration. Hence the first point is that France has a historical context that differs from other countries.

Secondly, unlike America and England, France does not apply a communitarianism system. Here, French policy is similar to Indonesian, where there are many societies and a sort of Pancasila (the five basic principles of the Republic of Indonesia: belief in God Almighty, humanity, unity, democracy and social justice) is applied to unify those diverse societies. We need integration.

Here the ban of religious symbols like Muslim headscarf, Christian cross, and Jewish skullcap only works in public school from elementary up to intermediate level, whereas in university and others the student are allowed to wear anything the want to. So I think, the French government wants a situation in which there is a plural society with new immigrants which sometimes find it hard to adapt so they at least learn to be united at school.

Hence, if only I teach in senior high school and see a girl wearing headscarf, while I am a catholic, I will not give particular mark because she is a Muslim. Or perhaps students with skullcaps will be less reluctant associating with students wearing headscarfs. Hence we see school as a place for integration, a necessary matter in a plural society in which youngsters learn to live in harmony and peace.

ULIL: Indonesia also has an ethnic integration policy. The Chinese are suggested not to live in individual enclaves. Is the same thing desirable in France?

AF: Yes, I think so, although in France it is not an obligation. So France has many similarities with Indonesia. I think the English and Americans would find it hard to understand the problems of France since they use a different system just like Malaysia which enforces a different system to Indonesia. For example, Indian, Malay and Chinese, live apart from each other in Malaysia. We never enforce that sort of system, but prefer the contrary - a system of integration.

ULIL: You said that France’s separation between religion and public life is related to its distinctive history and is valid for all religions. Why is the history of religious war still haunting France?

AF: I think, bitter memories still exist and leave a strong imprint. Actually, there has never been any problem with people who wear headscarf in practical life. We have to remember that up to 1991, the ban of wearing headscarf was also applicable in Indonesian public school. But I think a new problem appears in France because of the tensions resulted by international events influencing the interfaith relation in France.

ULIL: Like the 11^th September tragedy?

AF: Yes, 11^th September tragedy and Palestine-Israel conflict. We have a large Jewish community, because France is a country providing protection to oppressed people including Jews. So we have Jews driven out from Egypt in the late 1950’s who then come into France. We have a plural society and therefore, the events occurring outside of France like 11 September and Palestine-Israel conflict are expected to become issues at school. For example, recently, a Jewish high school has been burnt in France. Currently there is an interfaith tension which was not present two years ago. It is a new phenomenon.

ULIL: Andree, how can one understand the relation between secularism, democracy and the freedom of religious expression?

AF: We have to keep in mind that the relations can be observed outside of the schools where people can express whatever they want. Hence, the government educates the students living in France in French values and the virtues of French thought. It is done to protect Muslim children so that they have an equal education, without any discrimination, hence the teacher do not differentiate between Muslim and Jewish children and so on. So, the government is thinking about how to give an equal chance toward immigrants to get education like any other French children, without discrimination, and educate them to live in peace. That’s the main point.

So, this thinking shouldn’t be considered as anti-democratic, since we have inter-community problems that should be solved by education about living peacefully. I think it is important. If only there were no problems outside, the policy would not be like this.

ULIL: Can you estimate how many Muslims in France wear headscarfs?

AF: Statistic indicates that about 80% of Muslim women in France do not wear headscarfs. Hence, only 20% wear headscarfs. Syafiq Hasyim told us that some Muslim figures have said that the matter of headscarf is not an important religious matter. The French government asked the muslim leaders in France about this and they said that it is not a big problem and that the most important is integration of the Muslim children. Hence, to them, it’s not a fundamental matter. I know that the matter of wearing ot not wearing the scarf is the matter of interpretation and that people have different opinions about it for example, that wearing the scarf is not an obligation.

ULIL: Adonis, an Arabic writer, wrote a column responding this headscarf controversy. He said that showing their culture is very important in the Muslim community. Physical appearance is important. You’ve said that French policy is aimed to protect Muslim children in order to have an equal status to the French children. How far it is achieved?

AF: I think it is enough in the sense that many Muslim children can enjoy the public schools and then have a remarkable occupation in France. I’ve got a friend in France whose Catholic child will marry a Muslim Tunisian. They met in school in France, at a polytechnic, and work in the important banking office in Paris. Now they are going to be married, and it doesn’t matter.

ULIL: Will you compare French integration process to American and English ones. In England, there are many immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Africa. What is the effect of this distinction in daily life; is the English Muslim more individual while the French Muslim is more integrated with French people or what?

AF: Yes. There is more integration in France. We always compare our systems with English systems, just like Indonesians compare their ethnic and religious integration system with the Malaysian system. The French system is more similar to the Indonesian one, and the Malaysian system is more similar to the English. In French television broadcasting, we see the comments about the Pakistani population in England which is less assimilated. The condition differs to France. For instance, Moroccan people are used to French culture. They are integrated with French people. So, there is no thinking about who their friends are in school: Muslim or Jews. The main thing to them is that they are French citizens. []